checking a hand down

[83Unsuited]

Originally Posted by Matty H

If you're already allin why would you care if it's checked down? You can't make anymore out of it and likewise you can't be any worse off.

Ok then, I will try to answer it in English. Matty you are overlooking something extremely obvious. You are a lot worse off if you have to beat three other peoples hands, rather than just one.
E.g say you are the short-stack and go all-in with pocket Aces. You get called by three people, one with pocket kings, one with pocket jacks, and one with Ace 10 of clubs. The flop brings two clubs. The three players then agree to verbally check it down, (which as far as I am concerned is illegal, see below). Though you are presently ahead, you are actually only going to win the hand approx 50% of the time as any king, jack or club on turn or river will almost certainly knock you out.

What you want to happen is the player with the Kings, who will think he is ahead, to bet strongly to protect his hand from a possible flush-draw. This should get rid of the flush draw and possibly the Jacks, and mean the pocket aces will now win approx 80% of the time, rather more to your advantage don't you think?

As to verbally agreeing to check down a hand, from my reading of magazines and other forums I got the impression that if people did this the correct response is that their hands are declared dead and they forfeit any chips they have put in the pot. In blatant cases they would also have to suffer a time penalty away from the table, possibly after a warning first. Of course, in a big tournament you would have an impartial tournament director overseeing all this. In our league we only have the nightly organiser to do this job, which is rather unfortunate as, in my experience, some of them seem to be the worst offenders!

[gerryzz]

In my opinion if someone states in their chatbox online or says check it down to another

player when playing live then that is cheating 100%.

Personally if i am a shortstack and im on or near the bubble of a tourney and i push all in

and 1 or 2 big stacks call me i know 9 times out of 10 they are gonna check it down especially

if its a satellite and there is no prize money on offer they just want to try and knock another

player out and win their seat.

Im pretty sure almost everyone does the same thing its part of the game but if they verbally

agree to do it at the table wether live or online it can be seen as colluding .


In summary my point is i see nothing wrong in checking it down as long as nothing is said at

the table .

As The Reaper has quoted in the rules " AGREEING to check a hand out when a third player is

all in " is cheating in my opinion .

gerry .

[swinebag22]

Originally Posted by 83Unsuited

Ok then, I will try to answer it in English. Matty you are overlooking something extremely obvious. You are a lot worse off if you have to beat three other peoples hands, rather than just one.
E.g say you are the short-stack and go all-in with pocket Aces. You get called by three people, one with pocket kings, one with pocket jacks, and one with Ace 10 of clubs. The flop brings two clubs. The three players then agree to verbally check it down, (which as far as I am concerned is illegal, see below). Though you are presently ahead, you are actually only going to win the hand approx 50% of the time as any king, jack or club on turn or river will almost certainly knock you out.

What you want to happen is the player with the Kings, who will think he is ahead, to bet strongly to protect his hand from a possible flush-draw. This should get rid of the flush draw and possibly the Jacks, and mean the pocket aces will now win approx 80% of the time, rather more to your advantage don't you think?

As to verbally agreeing to check down a hand, from my reading of magazines and other forums I got the impression that if people did this the correct response is that their hands are declared dead and they forfeit any chips they have put in the pot. In blatant cases they would also have to suffer a time penalty away from the table, possibly after a warning first. Of course, in a big tournament you would have an impartial tournament director overseeing all this. In our league we only have the nightly organiser to do this job, which is rather unfortunate as, in my experience, some of them seem to be the worst offenders!

Excellent post

I didn't want to name names, but I did say some people who had been mentioned as offenders "should Know better". Hopefully the rules that mike posted a link to(both pages!!) will be circulated so that TD's can enforce this and of course follow it.

[ArmstrongCD]

Sly Dig there Michael!

It makes sense if ppl check down hands, esp if the pot is say less then 5% of their stack.

I've seen crazy ppl bet 3 times the pot (stupid play in itself '36') on the river with king high etc and ive had to fold 3rd pair and the all in person survives with Ace high.

Although when the all in person with ace high knocked the crazy fool with king high out about 4 hands later, boy did I laugh!

[83Unsuited]

I dont think anyone is disagreeing, Chris, that in an awful lot of cases checking down hands is the correct thing to do, and it is what I normally do. However, as Dice Man mentions in his earlier excellent post, it is certainly not automatically correct, as some people seem to think. If you have a made but vulnerable hand you are often correct to bet it, despite the ill-informed criticism you often then receive.

What is completely out of order, though, is when people verbally agree to check down a hand. As Swinebag says newer players see more experienced players doing this, and getting away with it, and then think it is the correct thing to do themselves. The whole thing then becomes self-perpetuating.

[ArmstrongCD]

I Agree, but I have to admit that I have been known to threaten the odd person when i'm on the flush draw lol, you can normally just talk the muppets into it anyhow.

Remember the Armstrong 'Mind Controls'

1) When a player is new, if its there big blind and u have just limped in, just say, are you checking? 99% of them will just say yes (this actually works on alot of players).

[Matty H]

Originally Posted by 83Unsuited

Ok then, I will try to answer it in English. Matty you are overlooking something extremely obvious. You are a lot worse off if you have to beat three other peoples hands, rather than just one.
E.g say you are the short-stack and go all-in with pocket Aces. You get called by three people, one with pocket kings, one with pocket jacks, and one with Ace 10 of clubs. The flop brings two clubs. The three players then agree to verbally check it down, (which as far as I am concerned is illegal, see below). Though you are presently ahead, you are actually only going to win the hand approx 50% of the time as any king, jack or club on turn or river will almost certainly knock you out.

What you want to happen is the player with the Kings, who will think he is ahead, to bet strongly to protect his hand from a possible flush-draw. This should get rid of the flush draw and possibly the Jacks, and mean the pocket aces will now win approx 80% of the time, rather more to your advantage don't you think?

As to verbally agreeing to check down a hand, from my reading of magazines and other forums I got the impression that if people did this the correct response is that their hands are declared dead and they forfeit any chips they have put in the pot. In blatant cases they would also have to suffer a time penalty away from the table, possibly after a warning first. Of course, in a big tournament you would have an impartial tournament director overseeing all this. In our league we only have the nightly organiser to do this job, which is rather unfortunate as, in my experience, some of them seem to be the worst offenders!

If somebody bets into an empty sidepot they are either

A) Stupid
B) Holding a big hand. If you have that beat then you are generally in front with 2, 3 or 4 people in regardless

If someone bluffs an empty sidepot then i want them on my table all day long

[LPL_Mike]

Matt

Lets just say were on the final table of a big tourney, 9 players left; blinds are 3K 6K your under the gun and raise 18K holding pocket 10's i am next to act and call with AK ...folds around to BB who pushes allin holding JQs for 24K total, you call leaving yourself 30K i also call leaving myself 50K.

Pot size is 72K

Flop is 593 ....your first to act what do you do?

A. You check it down hoping to scoop the pot
B. you bet into an empty pot to push me out and hope to win the heads up show down?

You chose A ....

Turn is a 9 ...... still want to check?

River is a K

show down you lose the pot to AK are you kicking yourself by not betting into a empty pot to protect your hand...?

[gerryzz]

Originally Posted by LPL_Mike

Matt

Lets just say were on the final table of a big tourney, 9 players left; blinds are 3K 6K your under the gun and raise 18K holding pocket 10's i am next to act and call with AK ...folds around to BB who pushes allin holding JQs for 24K total, you call leaving yourself 30K i also call leaving myself 50K.

Pot size is 72K

Flop is 593 ....your first to act what do you do?

A. You check it down hoping to scoop the pot
B. you bet into an empty pot to push me out and hope to win the heads up show down?

You chose A ....

Turn is a 9 ...... still want to check?

River is a K

show down you lose the pot to AK are you kicking yourself by not betting into a empty pot to protect your hand...?

Its a good point you have made and there are situatuions like this one where its not always as

simple as checking it down cos a player is all in .

I think the thread was started in fairness to see what players opinions were on what should

happen if players Verbally agree to check a hand down .

[swinebag22]

As I think we now all know that verbally agreeing to check a hand down is a bad thing to do and it will never happen again and as i started this thread, i officially give permission for people to now hijack it and discuss when or when not to check a hand down.

Great post mike!

I will not check a hand down when another player is allin in 2 situations

1. when i have the best hand and want to protect it. (see mikes post)

2. when i have a massive chip lead and dont mind keeping a short stack in the game. This gives me leverage to bully the medium stacks who are looking to ladder up through the short stacks.

.......sadly, situation 2 is all too rare in my case........