Who plays their M?

[bigbeam]

I was just wondering how many LPL players are aware of Harrington's M theory and bother to apply it. From my experience, not many. It seems there's always loads of players with only a couple of blinds worth of chips (2 M's, and in the "dead zone") in the final 16 on any given night. I can just about understand it if you're trying to limp into the points, but once you're there surely you've gotta be pushing with most hands if there's no raise in front of you.
I got some quizzical looks when i pushed with 8-9s last night. Ok, it's far from a great hand, but i was about to hit the blinds (600-300) with only 2,500 in chips, an M of just over 2.5. I barely had any fold equity as it was, and if went through blinds without picking something up i would've been out.

It just seems to me that a lot of people who play tournament poker week in week out aren't aware of this basic tournament principle.
Am i wrong, or are some people just interested in prolonging their inevitable fate than taking a chance?

[DonkBox]

I certainly consider my 'M' for instance i pushed last night with Q-10 with a stack of 3k when the blinds were 300-600.

However i'm not sure the LPL is akin to a regular tournament for using M as a guideline of when to go into push/fold mode because the majority of players have an M of under 10 once you get to the 300/600 or 400/800 level. If your stack is above avg but your M is in the red zone then what's more important? These two factors have to be balanced but certainly nothing wrong with your 8-9s push. I've made similar plays from the big blind with a low M and a number of limpers with hands as odd as 9-6 and 5-3 as i think the risk/reward ratio makes it a +ev move. Especially as you get the same points for places 16-11th it's worth trying to get a final table stack than limply limping to 13th place.
I also think it's better to push with a hand like 8s-9s than A-x as you can be easily dominated by a caller.

But as for the venues i play at i can think of less than half a dozen people who would know of Harrington and his principles, but hey that's not a bad thing!

[bigbeam]

I agree that you have to take into account the average stack size, but also the stack sizes of the leaders. When in the points: If the average size is 9000 and the blinds are 1000/2000, but the leaders have 20-30,000, i'm in fold/push mode. I'd rather bust out in 16th trying to make a move than limp on to the final table without enough chips to challenge the leaders.

[DonkBox]

Agreed. Fold to cash, skeet to win!

[RevStu]

I'm more of a chip-and-a-chair guy, myself. Even if you're down to 500, a good hand will almost certainly multiply you up four or five times on those blinds, buying you a fair bit of time to wait for another decent hand and multiply it up some more. 1,600 (your 2500 minus a set of blinds) is still a pretty playable LPL stack in my book, and personally I'd tend to wait another orbit for better odds rather than roll the dice blindly on 89s. It's not a bad hand and with a slightly lower stack I'd probably take a pop with it, but to my mind the odds of hitting something better when you're on bb or sb (or in the few freebie hands afterwards) outweigh the chances of it either hitting lucky or scaring everyone off.

(Of course, it depends on whether you're trying to build your stack by winning hands or by stealing blinds, either of which can be a valid strategy depending on who's sitting at the table at that point. Anyone who's even slightly loose is going to call you with any pocket pair or a half-decent picture card, and then you're in trouble. On a table of tightarses like me, you might just have pinched yourself a useful 900.)

What happened in the end, btw?

[bigbeam]

Originally Posted by RevStu

I'm more of a chip-and-a-chair guy, myself.

I'm not a fan of that approach. Any book you read will tell you the worse thing you can do in tournament play is let the blinds eat you without making a stand. However, i've read some articles by pro players that use approach effectively so i'm certainly not going to criticise you.


What happened in the end, btw?

I was called by Qx and hit a flush on the river to dbl up. I continued with the push/fold approach as my M didn't get above 5. I stole a few blinds and calls until my pocket 8's got called by Q9. Both Q and 9 hit the board and i was outta there. hey ho.

[bigbeam]

Sorry about that post Rev. My first reply looks like i've done an editorial on your post!

[drwinston]

The amount of times I've seen people going right down to the wire, without enough to pay the BB. It's an odd principle but people do it because they figure they could get more points.

For example, I could name 5-6 players who will ALWAYS fold their BB to a raise if they don't have a good hand, even if it leaves them with less than the BB. It's madness.

On Monday night, the blinds were at 800/1600 (I think) and the small blind only had about 925 left. So about 85% of their stack was in the small blind. The remaining players at the table had enough chips to pay the blinds without going broke. It folded round to the small blind and they took about 3 minutes to decide whether to put their remaining 125 chips in !!! Granted they only had 24o or something like that but what's there to think about?

They do it all the time. I play to win where I can. Of course, there are times, I'll have a stack of 4-5 BB's but I know I've got to get moving with any hand pretty soon.

It's all about making that extra 50 points in a free league game. One of the players near the top of the league hasn't even won a game this month !!! They play most nights of the week so they gain a lot of points, but that's the way they play. They'd rather finish third, 3 times, than win a game and come 6th twice.

[Cantona]

Interesting thread. I have often wondered just how many players, (league and otherwise), are well read in the likes of Harrington / sklansky etc. And how many just stumbled into the one game tey know and thats it ?

[Wuddle]

The standard rule that my brother told me, and that i've adopted is just generally if you have >10 big blinds then either all in or fold.