Are online slots really random?

[KasinoKing]

This discussion started in another thread about Pub fruitys;
http://www.gambling.co.uk/forums/gen...ert-views.html
but it has developed into a discussion about online slots so I've started a new thread with an appropriate title!

Sorry missed the online bit

Saying that though I thought online slots were more random like S16. I used to play Paddy power machines online and you can pump them all day and not get any response of it progressing. There was one about a year back called Double Jeopardy (Taken from the US tv quiz). When you got on the feature you had to pick squares and they would reveal an amount of money. My first pick was 25, 2nd 15 and then 3rd was 35 I then hit the finish square and it revealed what all of the other squares had underneath them.

While this was happening I lost connection so the feature started again. I then went to pick other squares hoping to get more but it did exactly the same sequence 25, 15, 35 finish which basically meant it had decided the amount i was going to get before I had even picked a square. It would not have mattered which squares I picked they would have come out in the same sequence. Which is the same for a S16

I have no idea at all what an 'S16' is - so you'll have to forgive my ignorance on that!

Your Paddy Power (WagerWorks software) experience was an unfortunate one; you would expect to get taken back to the exact same place after re-connection, with the already picked squares showing.
But given that they weren't, it would be unrealistic to expect to get different results if picking different squares. Otherwise people could deliberately sever their internet connection, go back & win all the top prizes!

These 'picking bonuses' have always been an annoying mystery to me: Are the prizes really behind the squares and your picks make a difference, or are the outcomes pre-determined so it doesn't matter which order you pick them in...?
I know it doesn't actually matter - but I'd still like to know!

Even if they are pre-determined it does not mean the slot is rigged. The bonus could be set to select a random amount between X - Y at the beginning of the round - but so what?

But the main thing I'm saying about online slots is when the reels spin, where they stop is truly random. (Not on online 'UK Pub Fruity' types)
A year or so back I actually analysed one of my favorites, Microgaming's Tomb Raider. Over many hours I painstakingly plotted out all the symbols on the 5 reels (very tedious as you can only see 3 symbols at a time!)
I discovered the the reels have 24, 28, 34, 40 & 40 symbols respectively. Each has one 'Lara' scatter symbol - you need 3 or more of these to win a free-spin bonus round. Based on the numbers of symbols above, the chances of getting 3 scatters for the feature are once in every 123.99 spins, and this more or less exactly corresponds to the results I've had over many 1000's of spins.

Some of my online friends on other forums have done similar experiments on other slots & came to the same conclusion - the result of each spin is truly random.

Online slots are completely different animals to £25 pub fruities; these are deliberately rigged to make them more interesting / exciting / addictive - they frequently go the the 'feature board' and take you tantalisingly close to that nice big win but then, damn you just needed the wheel to go low off that 11 but a 12 popped in... How annoying! Next time eh...

For anyone interested, these are the symbols on Tomb Raider:-

[DannyC]

oooook, have to take a breath for this one.

This has been analysed and threaded before big debates all over the shop, but this is a direct thread for this topic.

AWP (amusement with prizes), are the definitive of the UK gambling industry, its what we all talk about on this forum, its what were 'into', for some a hobby, some a living and for some a habit. When you look at AWPs with discipline, you see the light, you get the hints, when your computer literate it helps alot in understanding how these things work.

Forget the history, lets go back to the release of the new MPU which was MPU5. MPU4 and earlier units were eventually cracked and emulated on a standard PC using the rom chips which are inside the machines which contains the functioning, engine and programming directives of how the machine works all in all. Its the control unit.

AWP's are just like a computer with restriction, someone(s) has sat there, drawn up the project and developed the code for a certain machine, and majority of code that is developed, whether in ASM, C++, BASIC, PASCAL or any other compiled language, can (not always easily) reverse engineered.

When i look at an AWP machine, I dont see flashy lights like the ones with the 'habit' do, I dont enjoy the experience of a certain game as a hobby, and I dont have the time to make a living off it because im more profitable at what I do, probably 10x more profitable than what 'pros' could probably make. Because Im a geek (admittedly) myself, I weigh each machine and its clones up, I discuss with other members of this forum and local players, and there's a few on this forum who I can get technical with and have some good conversations with regarding the technology. SO when I look at an AWP as many others, I see the technology, I look for bugs, I keep a close ear to whats going on, and we manipulate the machines in any way shape or form to gain advantage over them. I have never and never would condone using any physical methods such as rodding etc. but whats wrong with taking advantage of bugged code? If there's an bug in an AWP which can strongly be taken advantage of (using discipline again) your in for a right treat, and the best thing is, its not illegal and most of the times its not noticable because your playing the 'end product' in a public place on its compiled version.

AWP's by law are on a percentage, usually between 72-84% throughout the pubs in the UK, and this percentage is not based on any kind of actual statistic specifically. If a machine is set at 72% this does not mean for every £100 you put in you can expect £72 back... the catch is, the 72% is over the duration that particular machine is in place in that establishment.

S16's (Section 16) machines are usually higher percentages, but if you understand all the above, you might start to understand that even though a machine is at 94%, it will actually throw low value wins out quiet often to balance its %. With the stakes being higher (£500) etc. to obtain a jackpot from an s16 would take longer hours standing at the machine than a AWP. The disadvantage to AWP is the feature board and the amount of gambling you do. For example, you roll in 3 cherries, you get to gamble that prize up the cash stack to exchange for feature board, you can gamble feature boards by continuing around it refusing to take wins, you can skillstop yourself on LOSE, all these factors make a huge difference when manipulating an AWPS percentage, because beyond original belief, while this 'gambling' phase was all about 'do i go round the board one more time or collect before it kills me' crap which is what the ones with 'habits and hobbyists' think, was actually flipped around on the manus, because its actual US who has control. On an S16 machine you spin>you win. You cant knockback 5 jackpots in a row can you?
See by doing this to an AWP, the machine thinks jackpot knocked back, hmm offer another one soon, when you knock back 3-4 JPs on a machine, it goes mental... it thinks wtf? the Norm says... you collect jackpot right? WRONG.
Knocking back a few jackpots and pumping more money in actually knocks the percentage WAY back, now the machines going into 'sick mode'. If the machine contains a 'streak' feature such as 'mega streak' you can be sure this is going to be brought into play and when it does, its going to streak BIG, why? Because the 3 jackpots its just offered you wouldve knocked back the %, but because you refused and put more money in, the mega streak that you do eventually collect has to somehow get the percentage back to normal.

Now, even in this scenario, each machines profile is programmed differently, some machines Mega Streak might just give you an £85 mega streak, other ways would be an MS for £25, then a few spins later an IM board, with maybe a JP repeat, its all the same to the machine just as long as its percentage gets leveled out. Now with new gameplays being created every year, and 5-6 different manu's now producing machines, this is why forums like this evolve, you find out by discussing, which manus to avoid (BellFruit) and which are the best downfallers for what we want to achieve.

After all this, you then move onto another topic of Online Slots. You cannot, TECHNICALLY compare ANY online slot to an S16 or AWP. Visually you can say they are 100% identical and gameplay too, but they are coded in completely different languages, they are compiled differently and online slots are usually using flash/java technology with alot of server/client side programming involved.

Now, from your statement above and in the previous thread, ( and no hard stab at you in this comment ) im starting to believe now that you are not looking beyond the 'circle', your not flying through the clouds, your not whistling the same tune, your not... you get it Because of the limited knowledge you hold on this subject, you dont see the full picture, only a 'punters' picture and thats not a stab at you or anyone else on this forum, im just explaining, thats what I think after reading your post.

You state:

£25 pub fruities; these are deliberately rigged to make them more interesting / exciting / addictive - they frequently go the the 'feature board' and take you tantalisingly close to that nice big win but then

exactly why WE are in control, NOT them, close to that big nice win? thats a good sign if anything, if its offering high features and cash stacks, its on the stage of nearing a jackpot.

This one I like:

But the main thing I'm saying about online slots is when the reels spin, where they stop is truly random. (Not on online 'UK Pub Fruity' types)

True, its truly random... to YOU its truly random, pre-determined from a 'random' number generated seed is 'truly' random, but not 100% random, search the forums for my topics on 'randomization' and cryptography.

AWP's are not truly random because the spin, 'just like s16's' is generated from an RNG seed, BUT the difference is, AWP's use different seeds, they have predefined 'sets' of seeds dependant on what percentage and state the machine is in so it knows what kinda of wins to roll in, an s16 RNG seed is like you say just a number generated 'randomly' between say 1-116,000 (as an example), BUT if that IS the case, and it is indeed truly 'RANDOM' as you say, why do these machines state a percentage? 94% is STILL a percentage, and in order for a machine coded specifically for one purpose to always keep around the 94% mark, there must be SOMETHING in the formula to enable it to do this, it would be against all mathematical and legal laws to say "well if you spin 10000 spins over 1 hour your bound to land a win from the RNG seed to balance its %" because if it was like in your eyes, 'random' then with the laws of randomness (lol) who's to say (RNG SEED number 2738 = no win) whos to say if it is random you cant spin in the number 2738 on each spin? THen 10000 spins you have won nothing because the 2738 value is a no win, and if indeed random, you should be law be able to hit that number 10000. Very unlikely but I hope my picture is being painted well.

Percentages mean nothing in the big picture, a % sticker on a machine only gives me the start of something, but as you can now hopefully see the pie is MUCH bigger, I hope to god I havent contradicted myself in all that, because i will officially become the 'twat of the year' on this forum if I have

My overall point is, you can compare online slots to awps, awps to s16s without knowing the technicalities of it all, All you have said to me in that previous post is how you can compare 'visually' and on percentage, and in my book you can debate the point just on those 2 factors.

Now im just awaiting Mr Elsworthys reply

[S6TAV]

Ok i am starting to wish i didn't say anything

Only jokin I quite liked that post

[jjh]

Holy shit Danny, that is the longest thread I've ever seen

Will have to digest it in chunks rather than in one go, my eyes started hurting half way through

Getting aside from the technology aspect, I'd ask you this. I'm not provoking anything but it was something I thought people could argue in reply to your post, and I could see were they were coming from if it was mentioned.

When you play a fruit machine, 9/10 people are trying to win money. If I know something, say how to manipulate a machine, then I too will use this to my advantage. The problem is for the people who don't know this info or whatever and stand no chance of winning. Me, I don't care, they should no when a machine is worth playing etc.

However, let us say they went in the pub first. For a laugh they had brought 100 old francs with them. Putting one into the machine, it registered as a two pound coin. Now, they could obviously win a shit load of money and it would be the manufacturer's problem that these coins worked, and if I had a load of old francs I'd certainly take advantage of it. I'm quite sure this would be classed as illegal.

Talking about morality on fruit machines is pointless because the end game is to make money, and the poor sod to go on afterwards- whether a machine has been emptied illegally or through a bug, which was likely coded on purpose, hence is illegal anyway, it makes no difference to that player who goes on next and loses a fortune because the % is messed up.

Sorry for getting off topic. Interesting thread. I couldn't really comment on whether they are random, but if so, it is the online bookmaker who has the longterm edge with any machine that is supposed to be random. Which is why I believe winning on them in the longterm is impossible. Unless of course, they are not truly random, in which case you could take advantage of this- by seeing patterns etc.

[jjh]

From the Bold above, I guess my point is that KK has answered his own question by the fact that he shows longterm profits on them.

If they are truly random, then the online bookmaker would have to have an advantage (much similar to roulette) to guarantee a longterm profit.

But the fact that KK makes money on online slots proves they can't possibly be random in the true sense of the word, as he takes advantage of something.

Unless he has been EXTREMELY lucky for the past 5 years or so, which is unlikely.

So my naswer would be no, they are not truly random.

[KasinoKing]

WOW! Fantastic post Danny - lots of useful info, and you even sussed I'm a long term fruity 'punter', not player!

This is the only thing I picked up on, if I'm interpreting it correctly...

... BUT if that IS the case, and it is indeed truly 'RANDOM' as you say, why do these machines state a percentage? 94% is STILL a percentage, and in order for a machine coded specifically for one purpose to always keep around the 94% mark, there must be SOMETHING in the formula to enable it to do this...

Sounds like you're saying online slots can not be random otherwise they could not be guaranteed to achieve their exact pay %...?

If that is what you're saying then it's the only piece of nonsense in your entire post!

Let's just take for example, a single zero, non French Roulette wheel.
There are 37 numbers and any one hitting pays 35/1.
So if you bet on them all at the same time it would cost you 37 chips & you would get back 36. Therefore the house edge is (37-36)/37 = 2.7027%.
To put it another way, the payout is 97.2973%

Now it does not matter where or how you place your chips, your return over an infinite number of spins will be exactly 97.2973%.

You can not change the laws of maths (many 1000's have tried & failed!) any more than you could invent time-travel!

So does the fact that it pays exactly 97.2973% mean that the roulette wheel is rigged..?
I think not.

From the Bold above, I guess my point is that KK has answered his own question by the fact that he shows longterm profits on them.

If they are truly random, then the online bookmaker would have to have an advantage (much similar to roulette) to guarantee a longterm profit.

But the fact that KK makes money on online slots proves they can't possibly be random in the true sense of the word, as he takes advantage of something.

Unless he has been EXTREMELY lucky for the past 5 years or so, which is unlikely.

So my answer would be no, they are not truly random.

Suppose every time you walked up to a fruit machine with £25 in your hand some guy came along & gave you another £25 to play with & keep your winnings...

And suppose every time this happened you played for a while and eventually walked away with £35....
I think you get my drift..

So yes, I do take advantage of something;
I (almost) never deposit online without getting a 100% bonus.

[Wuddle]

The mathematics of the machines would imply that they are random, just making the total wins 94% of the total reel spins... like the old aristocrat machines for example. But i fail to believe that these machines are random, due to the feature games they offer... there's still some sort of player control involved, so surely it can't be completely random.

I had to write an article about intercasino a few months back, and had to play the marvel slots extensively, and the hi-lo gamble was more rigged than i've seen on any fruit machine in the wild. when trying to get the third symbol for something, it blatantly refused to let me get it. i actually gave up trying. So to summerise the online machine had a more rigid block than any machine i've seen in the wild.

[DannyC]

However, let us say they went in the pub first. For a laugh they had brought 100 old francs with them. Putting one into the machine, it registered as a two pound coin. Now, they could obviously win a shit load of money and it would be the manufacturer's problem that these coins worked, and if I had a load of old francs I'd certainly take advantage of it. I'm quite sure this would be classed as illegal.

JJ that would be illegal, again its a physical advantage, not a software (end product) - which is why rechips become available when the manus detect them.

Sounds like you're saying online slots can not be random otherwise they could not be guaranteed to achieve their exact pay %...?

If that is what you're saying then it's the only piece of nonsense in your entire post!

Let's just take for example, a single zero, non French Roulette wheel.
There are 37 numbers and any one hitting pays 35/1.
So if you bet on them all at the same time it would cost you 37 chips & you would get back 36. Therefore the house edge is (37-36)/37 = 2.7027%.
To put it another way, the payout is 97.2973%

This bit has no relevance to my actual point of the entire post. To put it bluntly, the only thing ever found to be random of the true sense in this world is 'white noise'. When you program something in any language, whether VB, C, ASM, Pascal, there is no true sense of the word 'random' because YOUR the coder, YOU have to create the formula for it to be random.

Just say you have a range value of 1-10000. So every time you push 'button a' it randomly picks a number between 1-10000 in a split second, can someone, if anyone show me the formula in order for this to be 'random' ?

When the dust settles and you kinda get at where im coming from, you may think im going overboard by the word random, but i was, and still am very annoyed at the gambling industry for presenting the word 'random' in as many places as possible.

The simple answer without explaination to all this is a simple one line answer:

If there's a % to be obtained, its not random

[Prowler]

this is an interesting thread as i have a passing interest in online slots as well as s16's and awp's.

i also have a question regarding the s16's % claims.....

if an s16 is truly (by this i dont wanna get into the white noise etc debate) random then i dont see how it could pay out at 94% overall but if that 94% represented the possibility of a win in any 1 spin then it makes sense to me

simplified, if the rng had 100 possible numbers and 94 of those were wins then the % would be true PER spin, manu's could manipulate the size of wins by ratio ie 50 of those numbers would denote a 50p win and 1 number paying out the 500 jp with the rest set at a range between say a fiver and fifty quid, obviously with millions of reel combos available the rngs could have 10000 numbers and only 1 paying out a jackpot which changes your chance of a jackpot significantly

can anyone shed some light on this and if possible explain what the % actually relates to and if its overall rather than per spin how they manage to keep something random to a chosen %

[KasinoKing]

I had to write an article about intercasino a few months back, and had to play the marvel slots extensively, and the hi-lo gamble was more rigged than i've seen on any fruit machine in the wild. when trying to get the third symbol for something, it blatantly refused to let me get it. i actually gave up trying. So to summerise the online machine had a more rigid block than any machine i've seen in the wild.

Sorry, but I think you're getting confused somewhere...
I play Intercasino very regularly, and there definitely is no 'Ho-Lo' gamble on any of the Marvell slots.

The only slots which have this on their software are actually called 'Fruit Machines', and these are designed to play like UK fruities; i.e. give you a totally un-random result on your Hi-Lo selection!

I actually rate these particular slots as the worst on the net - whereas the Marvel slots are simply Marvelous!