Being blinded out versus calling a raise

[Dice Man]

Originally Posted by lucky_scrote

I didn't even mention this because it's so obvious.

Well the original question had an obvious answer then. You and Pete came storming in here answering a completely different question. I'd agree with you on that question, but in the context of this thread it looks like you're both giving a bad answer to the original question.

Also in your calculation it looks like if there are no antes, then it's break-even to push with ATC if it's folded to you. That means there are surely some hands you can fold because there might be a few more opportunities to push with a hand better than ATC.

[lucky_scrote]

Originally Posted by Dice Man

Well the original question had an obvious answer then. You and Pete came storming in here answering a completely different question. I'd agree with you on that question, but in the context of this thread it looks like you're both giving a bad answer to the original question.

Also in your calculation it looks like if there are no antes, then it's break-even to push with ATC if it's folded to you. That means there are surely some hands you can fold because there might be a few more opportunities to push with a hand better than ATC.

With the calculations shown, it would be a break even push for sure. =EV for making chips, but taking an =EV situation in tourneys can sometimes be extremely T+EV or T-EV at times. (I can't remember how you shorten tourney EV but im going to call it T+EV or T-EV.)


This is a situation where it would be T++++++EV. Let me give you an example of what a T-EV situation would be.

First hand of the world series and I have AKs in the BB. It is folded to the SB who shoves allin and turns over 22.

Cool Im a 50.01% Favourite if I call, but obviously taking this oppotunity every time would need a miracle to win any tourney so it would be T-EV.

[JPwizard]

everybody chill

I think everybody has answered the question in their own way whether you choose to take that on board or not is up to you. Theres no need to start saying who's right and who's wrong and start c*nting each other off

Dont get me wrong If I knew a decent hand was coming I would wait but no one knows this so you will just have to pick a spot and shove with ATC.
You could hang on and be all-in due to blinds and still be playing something like 94o at which point you will just think I should of shoved earlier, at least if the hand held up i would have doubled up to a half decent amount

[lucky_scrote]

Originally Posted by JPwizard

everybody chill

I think everybody has answered the question in their own way whether you choose to take that on board or not is up to you. Theres no need to start saying who's right and who's wrong and start c*nting each other off

Dont get me wrong If I knew a decent hand was coming I would wait but no one knows this so you will just have to pick a spot and shove with ATC.
You could hang on and be all-in due to blinds and still be playing something like 94o at which point you will just think I should of shoved earlier, at least if the hand held up i would have doubled up to a half decent amount

I'm chilled. I am just trying to teach my friends a thing or two.

[RevStu]

Originally Posted by JPwizard

everybody chill

I think everybody has answered the question in their own way whether you choose to take that on board or not is up to you. Theres no need to start saying who's right and who's wrong and start c*nting each other off

Dont get me wrong If I knew a decent hand was coming I would wait but no one knows this so you will just have to pick a spot and shove with ATC.
You could hang on and be all-in due to blinds and still be playing something like 94o at which point you will just think I should of shoved earlier, at least if the hand held up i would have doubled up to a half decent amount

The point I'm making, though, is that almost ANY hand is better than 94o. Even with just one more orbit you're massively odds-on to get a better hand than 94o, even if it's still only mediocre. What Dan says, quite rightly, is that ideally you want to shove any time you've got position while you have fold equity, and if that's your plan then it doesn't much matter what your cards are.

But it isn't the question that was being asked in the thread, because Judi's already down to 6bb and 6bb is rarely fold equity in any situation - and certainly not in the situation quoted here, where there are small and big stacks but no middling ones. And she specifically said "call a raise", even going so far as to put it in bold and underline it to avoid confusion - unlucky, Judi - so fold equity is irrelevant anyway.

Even if there ISN'T a raise and it gets folded round to you, the sb and bb in that situation both have decent reasons to call you whatever they have, and if you get a caller with 94o you're fucked. So it makes more sense to wait and hope to triple- or quadruple-up a smaller stack with a hand that at least has half a chance, than it does to shove with garbage that's likely to get called and lose.

[Gus Mango Fish]

Interesting thread. To answer Judi's question, I'd fold cards like 94o etc if there is a raise before me, and wait until the first time it's limped round to me where I'd shove with ATC.

If every single hand has action before me, I'd wait until a sizeable raise and hopefully take on a HU with ATC. Failing that, I'd wait until I'm UTG and then shove with ATC imo fwiw

[DonkBox]

Thx for supplying the math scrote, saves me firing up pokerstove

I'm sure Stu is just pulling one giant level, although he's tight (and scottish, coincidence?) i've never seen him blind down that much in a non LPL game. I reckon he's sucking you in so that in a meetup game everyone respects his shoves.

Judi one more thing I would add is that i've been known to shove blind with a c.10bb stack in late position , of course not letting others know this by feigning a look, or if you want to get sneaky just looking at one and shoving, obv repping an ace. There is an obvious downside to this but the advantages are: opponents can not read if you're strong or weak as you do not know yourself!, you push with hands you'd muck (rightly of wrongly) and also you don't try to get cute with a big hand.

Another thing I'd add is that the threshold for shoving ATC is higher in MTTs than in sit and gos, purely due to the flatter payouts and shallower stacks in sit and gos than in tournaments. Often is sit and gos you still have fold equity with five big blinds.

[lucky_scrote]

Originally Posted by DonkBox

Thx for supplying the math scrote, saves me firing up pokerstove

No problem, anything for you Nick!

Originally Posted by DonkBox

Another thing I'd add is that the threshold for shoving ATC is higher in MTTs than in sit and gos, purely due to the flatter payouts and shallower stacks in sit and gos than in tournaments. Often is sit and gos you still have fold equity with five big blinds.

Oh yeah, thanks for that, I forgot to put that in a post I made.

[wilfuljoker]

Wow, didn't know it was so controversial! Thanks for everybody's thoughts. Most of the debate has covered my dilemma. FWIW the reason I got into this mess was having called a raise on the button I had to fold post-flop, leaving me with about 8BBs. Then there was a long series of big bets before me which meant I had to keep folding. 20 min levels meant I was suddenly down to the 4BBs because of the increase in blinds. And my question was meant to be very specific about calling as opposed to being first to act and shoving (I have no probs with that at all). I know what you mean about not letting it happen and I can honestly say that it happens very rarely and usually because I lost a big pot. The key advice I take from this is: 1. Nick's point about setting the definition of "very short stack" higher in MTTs which is really helpful. 2. Calling after a raise can be ok if I think the raise (rather than my action) will make the players still to act fold. Afterall this is no different than being called by one other player because position is meaningless once you are all in.

So thanks for the effort guys (except for Dan who referred to me as "he" when most people know I'm a "she" )

[Gus Mango Fish]

Originally Posted by DonkBox

Judi one more thing I would add is that i've been known to shove blind with a c.10bb stack in late position , of course not letting others know this by feigning a look, or if you want to get sneaky just looking at one and shoving, obv repping an ace....

Lol, I do this too. Especially in large buy-in games, I pretend to look at my cards, then go all-in. Sometimes works a treat. Sometimes doesn't when you find you've done it with QQ or AA. Meh!