Online Stt's....

[Raiser]

How do you play them? not a trick question.... i just havent got a clue! cant cash to save my life!!! I have never been a fan of them and never played them much tbh...

[DonkBox]

Originally Posted by Raiser

How do you play them? not a trick question.... i just havent got a clue! cant cash to save my life!!! I have never been a fan of them and never played them much tbh...

Lee it's generally accepted that tight is right in stts (you really shouldn't bother playing them lol ). For the first few levels you really want to play premium hands only and see flops as cheaply as possible with small pairs and look to flop a set. If you raise with A-K OOP and miss then be prepared to ck fold, or fire one bullet and then fold if you meet resistance. As soon as it gets down to five handed or 75/150 and 100/200 (whichever comes first) you obv need to open up a bit and use position as a weapon. On the bubble if you're the big stack you can committ larceny on a grand scale. I'll drag up the HH from the $5.50 I played for the contest, I won something like 18/20 pots on the bubble as I had c.6.5k and the other stacks were 3k, 1.8k., 1.5k at 100/200/25. I was open shoving every pot, no one wanted to bust so it was like free money.

Below is a link to a no frills abc way to play them that I used as a basis for how I played them to start with and then you develop from it. btw this is for standards e.g 10-15min levels. Turbos are a different beast.

guide to donk and gos

[Dice Man]

I have been absolutely crushing STTs recently, cashing in nearly every game. However I think I was playing too often and lost interest just when I moved up stakes, thus losing about $100 (losing around 18 of 20 coinflips didn't help either), so I'm having a week-long break I think.

As Donkbox said, you should play really super-tight in the early stages. I'm only raising with TT+, AQs+. You can limp with any pair, any ace suited, and a few decent suited connectors. If you get KK/AA on the very first hand you can make a 10x raise or a 20x raise against limpers and expect a call usually, since they expect you are a fish, and they'll bring a hand like AJo to the party.

Never bluff pre-flop against a raiser: they will almost never fold. If you're on the button or close to the button and you have a hand like 78s against one or two limpers, you can make a x6 raise and often take it. Just don't expect anyone to fold pre-flop when they've already raised.

It is possible to bluff post-flop. You just have to gauge the interest of the other players on the board. Even 3rd bullets are possible since players will call on draws without the correct odds. It's hard to tell whether they have the draw or middle pair though. Unless they improve you can typically take them off an unimproved middle pair by the river.

I don't recommend becoming super-aggressive at the bubble. Players know that you could be raising with marginal hands there. I've been taken out on the bubble a few times by players who've re-raised me with hands like A2 and 22. Just play sensibly around the bubble. Opponents tend to take each other out on their own. Last week I was playing a turbo 5-man and a regular 10-man at the same time. I folded a few hands in the turbo game and wasn;t paying attention to it. After about 2 minutes I noticed that one guy had already taken out the other 3 and I'd cashed without playing a hand. (Won it as well: the chipleader at that point always plays super-aggressive in a bid to finish it. When you double up twice they don't slow down as they're on tilt. They see it as an ego-boost to win a tournament in 5 minutes and bust everyone at the table. They'll have temporarily forgotten how to play it slowly and chances are their run of cards won't continue.)

In the early stages, even though you're playing tight, your opponents rarely notice it. You can expect to get it all in pre-flop against hands like A8 and KQ. 70% of the STT players at the $3-$20 levels will raise pre-flop with those hands (which isn't the worst play I guess), but then they just can't fold to someone who hasn't played a hand in 10 minutes and re-raises 5x.

No one ever folds top pair on the flop, no matter if there was a raise pre-flop with two other callers, and those same two have gone all in on the flop, the third guy won't fold his QJo on the JT5 board. Here's an example of that: (I have loads of examples of stuff like this, found this one after about 20 seconds) Note how the 2 callers are on my immediate left and completely disregard the rest of the table. I notice this a lot. If I raise pre-flop, I'd guess everyone on the table has about a 10% chance of calling, except for 1) the guy on the button, who has about 20%, 2) the big blind with 20% also, and 3) the guy on my immediate left, who has about 30%. They must reason that they can outplay me post-flop because they have position.

***** Hand 701149529 *****
25.00/50.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 29 July 2007 16:44:55
STT $10 NL (Real /Tournament )
Seat 1: Rob Bear (1655.00)
Seat 3: Auloni (1405.00)
Seat 4: kk1000 (875.00)
Seat 5: Dice Man (2250.00)
Seat 6: benjamin168 (4205.00)
Seat 8: nachofres. (1295.00)
Seat 9: djtower (1605.00)
Seat 10: !hyunkyel! (1710.00)
Auloni post SB 25.00
kk1000 post BB 50.00
** Deal **
Rob Bear [N/A, N/A]
Auloni [N/A, N/A]
kk1000 [N/A, N/A]
Dice Man [As, Ac]
benjamin168 [N/A, N/A]
nachofres. [N/A, N/A]
djtower [N/A, N/A]
!hyunkyel! [N/A, N/A]
*** Bet Round 1 ***
Dice Man Raise to 200.00
benjamin168 Call 200.00
nachofres. Call 200.00
djtower Fold
!hyunkyel! Fold
Rob Bear Fold
Auloni Fold
kk1000 Fold
*** Flop(Board): *** : [3s, 7c, 6h]
*** Bet Round 2 ***
Dice Man Bet 450.00
benjamin168 Fold
nachofres. All-in 1095.00
Dice Man Call 1095.00
*** Turn(Board): *** : [3s, 7c, 6h, Jd]
*** River(Board): *** : [3s, 7c, 6h, Jd, Kh]
*** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 2865.00
Rob Bear Fold Win: 0.00
Auloni Fold Win: 0.00
kk1000 Fold Win: 0.00
Dice Man [As, Ac] Pair of aces Win: 2865.00
benjamin168 Fold Win: 0.00
nachofres. [7h, Qh] Pair of sevens Win: 0.00
djtower Fold Win: 0.00
!hyunkyel! Fold Win: 0.00

You probably already know this, but if you have a big hand (AA), and there's several limpers already, and you make it about 7-8x to play, if the first of the limpers calls (usually the SB), the rest will usually call too. They see his call as indicating that there is enough money in thepot for them to call too. They don't realise that they're QJ or JT has a larger chance of being dominated. There's nothing you can do about having all 5 limpers call your 8x raise pre-flop, it's just annoying. Next time make it 12x.

People play ace rag way too much. A basic rule is to just never play it at all unless it's suited, even then only limp, don't be calling any substantial raises like this guy did. Also, don't protect your blinds. That is one of the silliest pieces of advice I've ever heard. I suspect it's one of those things pros say on TV to encourage people to defend their blinds against them. And they use the metaphor of "protecting your children" to give it more weight. Your blinds no longer belong to you. They are public property and part of the pot. The only reason you have to call from the blinds is because you are usually given a slight discount (especially against min-raises).


***** Hand 699378181 *****
15.00/30.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 27 July 2007 21:38:27
STT $5 NL (Real /Tournament )
Seat 1: flux1 (1410.00)
Seat 2: Dice Man (1440.00)
Seat 3: Leeba (1290.00)
Seat 4: Mungon1 (1455.00)
Seat 5: Mike Ho (1440.00)
Seat 6: dingo31 (1170.00)
Seat 8: gilnuts (4095.00)
Seat 9: Oxotnik (1500.00)
Seat 10: Floyd81 (1200.00)
dingo31 post SB 15.00
gilnuts post BB 30.00
** Deal **
flux1 [N/A, N/A]
Dice Man [Qc, Qd]
Leeba [N/A, N/A]
Mungon1 [N/A, N/A]
Mike Ho [N/A, N/A]
dingo31 [N/A, N/A]
gilnuts [N/A, N/A]
Oxotnik [N/A, N/A]
Floyd81 [N/A, N/A]
*** Bet Round 1 ***
Oxotnik Call 30.00
Floyd81 Call 30.00
flux1 Call 30.00
Dice Man Raise to 270.00
Leeba Fold
Mungon1 Fold
Mike Ho Fold
dingo31 Call 270.00
gilnuts Fold
Oxotnik Fold
Floyd81 Call 270.00
flux1 Fold
*** Flop(Board): *** : [2d, 5h, Kd]
*** Bet Round 2 ***
dingo31 Check
Floyd81 Check
Dice Man All-in 1170.00
dingo31 All-in 900.00
Floyd81 Fold
*** Turn(Board): *** : [2d, 5h, Kd, 5d]
*** River(Board): *** : [2d, 5h, Kd, 5d, 6c]
*** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 2700.00
flux1 Fold Win: 0.00
Dice Man [Qc, Qd] Two pair queens and fives Win: 2700.00
Leeba Fold Win: 0.00
Mungon1 Fold Win: 0.00
Mike Ho Fold Win: 0.00
dingo31 [3s, Ad] Pair of fives Win: 0.00
gilnuts Fold Win: 0.00
Oxotnik Fold Win: 0.00


Some more advice: this one is something I never ever do in any circumstance, but I don't think I know of anybody else who does the same as me. On the flop if there are 3 or more players and I am first to act I never bet. Sometimes I will bet if I am 2nd of 4 or 3rd of 6, but in early position never. I may sometimes bet 1st of 3 on the turn or river. It's basically too expensive to be betting out in early position on the flop. Say the flop is 874 and you were in the small blind with A8 or K8, it is pure suicide to bet on what is probably the best hand. Say there's 600 in the pot pre-flop and you want to bet 400 at this now. Some dude calls on the button and there's now 1400 in the pot, and the turn is a jack. You can either check and 1) give them a free card for their draw, 2) bet small which is a sign of weakness and puts you in a tough position if they re-raise, 3) check, and again face a tough call if they raise, or 4) [the worst], you bet out nearly pot-sized again, putting 1000 in. The pot's getting out of control and you only have a middle pair by the river usually. I prefer to check the flop and either call down or check-raise.

Apparently I have written too mcuh so it needs to be split into two posts...

[Dice Man]

Also I've noticed: if someone else has control of a pot, having raised the flop and turn, but they only have small control as they've been betting small, if you make a massive raise on the river it always looks like a massive bluff. It basically says "if you had a hand you'd be raising more than you were, therefore I'm going to buy this one with a huge raise". Like the following: (Also note how this is an example of playing what's probably the best hand slowly in early position post-flop. This isn't slow-playing. I'd need top 2 pair or a set for this to be slow-playing. If there's significant interest in this pot on the flop I can fold K4 easily. In the long term I don't mind players outdrawing my K4 here with their QJ, as I'm not expecting to win this pot at this stage anyway)


***** Hand 700178723 *****
15.00/30.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 28 July 2007 17:46:43
STT $20 NL (Real /Tournament )
Seat 1: enano31 (1575.00)
Seat 2: madbull (1485.00)
Seat 3: JapKev (1455.00)
Seat 4: never7 (1755.00)
Seat 5: BizeBub25 (1290.00)
Seat 6: Dice Man (1500.00)
Seat 7: dragontail (1470.00)
Seat 8: CrazzyyM (1470.00)
Seat 9: mal99 (1500.00)
Seat 10: delfirbankio (1500.00)
BizeBub25 post SB 15.00
Dice Man post BB 30.00
** Deal **
enano31 [N/A, N/A]
madbull [N/A, N/A]
JapKev [N/A, N/A]
never7 [N/A, N/A]
BizeBub25 [N/A, N/A]
Dice Man [Kc, 4c]
dragontail [N/A, N/A]
CrazzyyM [N/A, N/A]
mal99 [N/A, N/A]
delfirbankio [N/A, N/A]
*** Bet Round 1 ***
dragontail Fold
CrazzyyM Call 30.00
mal99 Fold
delfirbankio Fold
enano31 Call 30.00
madbull Call 30.00
JapKev Fold
never7 Call 30.00
BizeBub25 Call 30.00
Dice Man Check
*** Flop(Board): *** : [2s, Ks, 10c]
*** Bet Round 2 ***
BizeBub25 Check
Dice Man Check
CrazzyyM Check
enano31 Bet 75.00
madbull Fold
never7 Fold
BizeBub25 Fold
Dice Man Call 75.00
CrazzyyM Call 75.00
*** Turn(Board): *** : [2s, Ks, 10c, 3c]
*** Bet Round 3 ***
Dice Man Check
CrazzyyM Check
enano31 Bet 120.00
Dice Man Call 120.00
CrazzyyM Call 120.00
*** River(Board): *** : [2s, Ks, 10c, 3c, Ac]
*** Bet Round 4 ***
Dice Man Bet 510.00
CrazzyyM All-in 1245.00
enano31 Fold
Dice Man Call 1245.00
*** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 3255.00
enano31 Fold Win: 0.00
madbull Fold Win: 0.00
JapKev Fold Win: 0.00
never7 Fold Win: 0.00
BizeBub25 Fold Win: 0.00
Dice Man [Kc, 4c] Ace high flush Win: 3255.00
dragontail Fold Win: 0.00
CrazzyyM [Qh, Jh] Ace high straight Win: 0.00
mal99 Fold Win: 0.00


When it gets to 3-way action, a 3x raise on the button is good once every two turns. Whoever is on the BB you are raising seems tho think you are raising every hand just because they remember the time they get their BB stolen. They don't realise you are folding trash on the button too. It won't take long until they push back from their BB with ace rag or a small pair.


***** Hand 700212478 *****
150.00/300.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 28 July 2007 18:20:15
STT $20 NL (Real /Tournament )
Seat 3: JapKev (5945.00)
Seat 6: Dice Man (5065.00)
Seat 7: dragontail (3990.00)
dragontail post SB 150.00
JapKev post BB 300.00
** Deal **
JapKev [N/A, N/A]
Dice Man [10d, 10c]
dragontail [N/A, N/A]
*** Bet Round 1 ***
Dice Man Raise to 900.00
dragontail All-in 3990.00
JapKev Fold
Dice Man Call 3990.00
*** Flop(Board): *** : [Qs, Jc, Ah]
*** Turn(Board): *** : [Qs, Jc, Ah, 3h]
*** River(Board): *** : [Qs, Jc, Ah, 3h, 4h]
*** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 8280.00
JapKev Fold Win: 0.00
Dice Man [10d, 10c] Pair of tens Win: 0.00
dragontail [Ac, 9h] Pair of aces Win: 8280.00


Oh yeah, another thing I have been stung by several times recently. Several times I've raised pre-flop with a hand like AK or AQ, and I've had someone with no chips invested already go all in on me with a small pair, could even be 22. And check out the following hand. A player limps in early with 55 (personally I fold 55 there as he only has 11 BB= too much of his stack invested with too small odds of hitting a set), I raise it up with AK. He doesn't just call me, but goes all in, which I insta-call. Stupidest play ever by him. He must be thinking "this guy has AK/AQ and I am slight favourite". If he knew my game he should know that I consider hands like 77 to be worse than AKo. In that position the only hands I'm raising with are going to be AK, AQ, and any pair 88 or above. I might limp 77 and fold 66 below. Most of the hands I have here have got him crushed. Plus it's clearly bad play to put all your chips in knowing it to be a 50:50 anyway. People do this all the time though.

***** Hand 701115049 *****
100.00/200.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 29 July 2007 16:12:34
STT $10 NL (Real /Tournament )
Seat 3: rilcy31 (2790.00)
Seat 4: GamblerDK (1920.00)
Seat 5: Mapanjas (3375.00)
Seat 7: taxihenry (2200.00)
Seat 8: og1205 (1945.00)
Seat 9: Dice Man (2770.00)
rilcy31 post SB 100.00
GamblerDK post BB 200.00
** Deal **
rilcy31 [N/A, N/A]
GamblerDK [N/A, N/A]
Mapanjas [N/A, N/A]
taxihenry [N/A, N/A]
og1205 [N/A, N/A]
Dice Man [Kd, As]
*** Bet Round 1 ***
Mapanjas Fold
taxihenry Call 200.00
og1205 Fold
Dice Man Raise to 1000.00
rilcy31 Fold
GamblerDK Fold
taxihenry All-in 2200.00
Dice Man Call 2200.00
*** Flop(Board): *** : [3h, 10c, 6c]
*** Turn(Board): *** : [3h, 10c, 6c, Qh]
*** River(Board): *** : [3h, 10c, 6c, Qh, 10h]
*** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 4700.00
rilcy31 Fold Win: 0.00
GamblerDK Fold Win: 0.00
Mapanjas Fold Win: 0.00
taxihenry [5d, 5h] Two pair tens and fives Win: 4700.00
og1205 Fold Win: 0.00
Dice Man [Kd, As] Pair of tens Win: 0.00

People who limp early then push to a raise almost never have AA-QQ, or AK-AT, 90% of the time they have a pair 66 or smaller.

Another thing: if you're playing heads up with hardly any blinds left (ie equalish stacks less than 10 BB each), it can be good to limp hands like AA-QQ, especially if it's been aggressive so far and your opponent might just raise to get you off your limp. However I'd say this play is only good heads up. I've seen people do the same thing 5-way. Typically if the game drags on at 5-way to the point where it's a bit crapshooty who makes the money, each hand is usually a walk for the BB or someone goes all in and everyone else folds. You hardly ever see any flops at this point. But some people like to limp in with AA-QQ to give some rope to the BB to hang himself as they say, when he hits top pair. I think it's a dangerous play, but I've observed it a lot. Sometimes they might limp with a hand "you like to see flops with" (Mike Sexton) like 67s too. Those hands are easy folds if you're not a complete idiot though. At that point in the game 67s is rubbish compared to Q4o.

These are my tips. I had a 35% ROI last week, and the form "hot" on Sharkscope, although it's now 25% and "tilt". I'll give it a week off but then I expect to rape them again pretty quick.

[Raiser]

Cheers. Alot of time and effort when in to that dice, appreciated. And cheers donkman.

Some intresting points made and i will take them on board and see what happens! Give me an mtt anyday!

[Rich Ghost]

Nice write up Dice. Some very good advice there.

[Dice Man]

TY. Another point I thought I'd make. This one isn't massive, it's just one of the very minor things I've picked up. If you're in the SB and want to complete, and the hands just started so other players are to act before you, don't tick the auto-call. I've noticed that if it folds all the way around the table and the BB sees you auto-call, they can put you on one of the many trashy hands you were expecting to see a multi-limped pot with. Personally I could have every trashy hand from 32o in that position, to get a cheap straight or trips. But if it had folded to me in SB and I had 32o, I give the BB a walk, and with a lot of other trash hands. So if I'm SB I always wait about 1 second before I complete.

Also, this one's kinda standard, but it took me ages before I really saw the light. If it's just you as SB and BB in the pot, after you limp, and then they raise it to 3x or more, they almost always have a good hand, probably 77+, AJ+. If you think about it they don't really have much incentive to raise you with nothing here since there's only one blind to win. I used to think they were being needlessly aggressive. I suppose one advantage in calling with trash is that you know they'll continuation-bet post-flop 100% of the time, and you could trap them, but I don't think it's worth calling with Q5s the amount of times they'll have AA-QQ.

Just got back into some stts, winning my first $20 game, which Richghost got a sick unlucky bubble on. Also check out this hand:


***** Hand 702776772 *****
15.00/30.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 30 July 2007 23:18:31
STT $10 NL (Real /Tournament )
Seat 1: Nuts102 (1500.00)
Seat 2: Graz6 (1605.00)
Seat 3: Falck3320 (1905.00)
Seat 4: debee (1110.00)
Seat 5: Dice Man (1500.00)
Seat 6: marcelg (1410.00)
Seat 7: tanton53 (1470.00)
Seat 8: jonni007 (1500.00)
Seat 9: mrbrown79 (1500.00)
Seat 10: D. Bayleaf (1500.00)
debee post SB 15.00
Dice Man post BB 30.00
** Deal **
Nuts102 [N/A, N/A]
Graz6 [N/A, N/A]
Falck3320 [N/A, N/A]
debee [N/A, N/A]
Dice Man [Ah, 8h]
marcelg [N/A, N/A]
tanton53 [N/A, N/A]
jonni007 [N/A, N/A]
mrbrown79 [N/A, N/A]
D. Bayleaf [N/A, N/A]
*** Bet Round 1 ***
marcelg Raise to 90.00
tanton53 Fold
jonni007 Fold
mrbrown79 Fold
D. Bayleaf Fold
Nuts102 Fold
Graz6 Fold
Falck3320 Fold
debee Call 90.00
Dice Man Call 90.00
*** Flop(Board): *** : [2h, 6s, 5c]
*** Bet Round 2 ***
debee Check
Dice Man Check
marcelg Bet 90.00
debee Call 90.00
Dice Man Call 90.00
*** Turn(Board): *** : [2h, 6s, 5c, 5s]
*** Bet Round 3 ***
debee Check
Dice Man Check
marcelg Bet 120.00
debee Fold
Dice Man Call 120.00
*** River(Board): *** : [2h, 6s, 5c, 5s, Jh]
*** Bet Round 4 ***
Dice Man Check
marcelg Bet 240.00
Dice Man Call 240.00
*** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 1260.00
Nuts102 Fold Win: 0.00
Graz6 Fold Win: 0.00
Falck3320 Fold Win: 0.00
debee Fold Win: 0.00
Dice Man [Ah, 8h] Pair of fives , ace kicker Win: 1260.00
marcelg [Kd, 10d] Pair of fives Win: 0.00
tanton53 Fold Win: 0.00
jonni007 Fold Win: 0.00
mrbrown79 Fold Win: 0.00

The guy asked me afterwards why I called, and I told him he just didn't bet enough at it at any point for me to fold. I'd've thought I'd be beat here 98% of the time, but I insta-called on the river. That's poker-instinct for you.

[cheese_sandwich]

Originally Posted by DonkBox

Below is a link to a no frills abc way to play them that I used as a basis for how I played them to start with and then you develop from it. btw this is for standards e.g 10-15min levels. Turbos are a different beast.

guide to donk and gos

does that technique refer to live games aswell, or just online?

[lucky_scrote]

Originally Posted by cheese_sandwich

does that technique refer to live games aswell, or just online?

Online