Legitimate?

[POB666]

Someone told me this last night

All players at the table except for 2 have folded their hands. Player 1 goes ALL IN. Without ANY indication of a call or fold, Player 2 flips over his Hold cards. He is trying to gauge the reaction of Player 1 before deciding on whether to call or fold. Player 1 argues that he's folded his hand when he turned over his Hold cards, Player 2 contends that this is perpectly legal in No Limit Texas Hold 'Em. I thought this was was a legitimate move, am i right?

PS- where are all the new threads, pull your fingers out lads

[Matty H]

Assuming their is a line on the table and his cards haven't crossed the line then his hand is still live. A player is only deemed to have mucked his cards if he tosses them over the line either face up or face down, although I stand to be corrected

[POB666]

thats what i thought, but this was a home game. And even at a casino with a line wouldnt it be the same as naming your hand, or is this only if there is still streets left to come that could be bet on

[PokerWoody]

Dependant on house rules - I wouldn't try it without knowing what the rules are. Some casinos say exposed cards are dead.

Personally, I don't allow it in my home games.

[Matty H]

As far as I'm aware there is no rule saying you cannot show your cards to gauge reaction. I have certainly seen it happen in a casino and no one kicked off about it. I'm not certain on this though, but someone here will know for sure

[Dice Man]

Hmm...I think the term is "hole cards" because you can't see what another person's cards are, although "hold cards "would also seem to be appealing because people hold them, and it is Texas HoldEm.

Anyway, in this example if the rules of the house were that you can flip over your cards without folding them then I'd say that's fine. If the rules of the house are that flipped cards are either folded or called then that's also fine. The question then is if the house doesn't have any specific rules, which rules are we to suppose are in effect?

Intuitively, I'd say that you can expose one card and still be live but both cards and your hand is dead, unless you've said "call" in which case you've called. Or they could say something else like "okay", flip them over, Id say that's also a call. I read about a hand on a forum where a player has aces, another guy goes all in, and the first guy says something like "That's the second time you've gone all in when I've had aces", flips his cards over, and the second guy says "Ah you didn't say 'call'. That means you've folded your hand!" To me that is very dishonest and you can tell from somebody's tone whether they've called or not. I guess I'd say the rules should be looser in home games than in casinos but still, you can usually tell when somebody's called or not. Even if they say an emotionless "okay" to me that's a call because it's like answering the question, "Are you prepared to play for the amount of chips I have just stuck out?"

Anyway I suspect that this is going to get several different answers because it's mostly subjective, but I would say the guy has folded here, unless he gestures that he is calling, or he sticks his chips in pretty damn quickly after he flips the cards over.

Actually, I think gestures are or should be accepted in casinos too. I mean, I;ve seen on the WPT final table before Humberto Brenes making a snowplough gesture to go all in, and they've counted that as meaning all in without him needing to say it. So in my opinion, it depends on the gestures and behaviour of the person in whether they have called or folded there.

[PokerWoody]

As far as I'm aware there is no rule saying you cannot show your cards to gauge reaction. I have certainly seen it happen in a casino and no one kicked off about it. I'm not certain on this though, but someone here will know for sure

Most will allow it, but i've seen threads before where people have tried on the house has ruled the hand dead. Don't know if that was in the UK or elsewhere though.

[CitrusSR]

Dependant on house rules - I wouldn't try it without knowing what the rules are. Some casinos say exposed cards are dead.

Yes, as far as I'm aware different tournaments/casinos have different rules on this

[POB666]

in my opinion, it depends on the gestures and behaviour of the person in whether they have called or folded there.

But behaviours and gestures can be Interpreted incorrectly

[Matty H]

Most will allow it, but i've seen threads before where people have tried on the house has ruled the hand dead. Don't know if that was in the UK or elsewhere though.

I can't help but keep thinking of Tom's mucked cash game hand that time