Flat calling with AA/KK/QQ

[Dice Man]

I see people do this all the time pre-flop and sometimes post-flop. I'm wondering how often it's actually a profitable play. Here's a recent example of this happening. I'm talking about my opponent's play here:

Hand #404520897 at table: STT $3 NL
Started: Tue Aug 29 23:56:49 2006

earli is at seat 2 with 5540.00
Dice Man is at seat 5 with 4565.00
dale71 is at seat 6 with 2305.00
m31416 is at seat 10 with 2140.00

earli posts the large blind 300.00
m31416 posts the small blind 150.00

m31416: --, --
earli: --, --
Dice Man: 2c, 2h
dale71: --, --

Pre-flop:

Dice Man: Raise 900.00
dale71: Fold
m31416: Fold
earli: Call 900.00

Flop (Board: 2s, 3d, 10d):

earli: Check
Dice Man: Bet 1200.00
earli: Call 1200.00

Turn (Board: 2s, 3d, 10d, Jc):

earli: Check
Dice Man: All in
earli: Call 2465.00

Showdown:

earli shows: Qs, Qd (a pair of Queens)
Dice Man shows: 2c, 2h (three of a kind, Deuces)

River (Board: 2s, 3d, 10d, Jc, 8d):


Mainpot:
Dice Man wins the pot of 9280 with three of a kind, Deuces

(0.00 rake were taken for this hand)

The way I see this hand, I should be the one scared of earli, as he's the only one who can bubble me, but he seems to be scared of me. I've been raising the blinds of the shorter stacks frequently and getting away with it, so he must suspect I'm doing it with crap and he can do something about it, especially when he has QQ. He clearly thinks he's ahead all the way through this hand, but my question is: how often is a hand like AA/KK/QQ going to be beaten by the river? I'd estimate about 25-30% of the time. But on average they are only beaten about 0.1% of the time pre-flop. So surely it's a ridiculous strategy to flat call to the river with no overcards out there. I don't mind flat-calling on the flop, especially with aces, as it makes you look weaker than you would otherwise be, but then surely raise on the flop? (even though he was beat by this point)

Here's an example of the flat-call strategy working later in the same game, putting me in 2nd rather than the seemingly inevitable first after the last hand.

Hand #404531517 at table: STT $3 NL
Started: Wed Aug 30 00:15:01 2006

Dice Man is at seat 5 with 8345.00
dale71 is at seat 6 with 5755.00

dale71 posts the large blind 600.00
Dice Man posts the small blind 300.00

dale71: --, --
Dice Man: 5d, 7s

Pre-flop:

Dice Man: Call 600.00
dale71: Raise 1200.00
Dice Man: Call 1200.00

Flop (Board: 10d, 3s, 7h):

dale71: Check
Dice Man: Bet 1800.00
dale71: Call 1800.00

Turn (Board: 10d, 3s, 7h, 2c):

dale71: Check
Dice Man: All in
dale71: All in

Showdown:

Dice Man shows: 5d, 7s (a pair of Sevens)
dale71 shows: Ad, Ah (a pair of Aces)

River (Board: 10d, 3s, 7h, 2c, 8c):


Mainpot:
dale71 wins the pot of 12710 with a pair of Aces

(0.00 rake were taken for this hand)

Clearly I'm at fault for the bad play here. After checking the flop I put dale on overcards to the board, and the average fish will call a big bet here with those cards, meaning that as far as I could see, I could still be ahead on the turn even after his call. The thing is, when I went all in, just before he called, in the chatbox he says "hee hee" as if to say "I've caught you big time". As soon as he said that I thought he must have the nuts, trip 10s. The thing is, he did have me beat, but by this point there were lots of hands that would've had him beat, including 72o of all hands.
I can't really fault dale's play that much because with AA heads up you will win at showdown most of the time because top pair is a great hand heads up (middle pair is for me ), and it will be bet with conviction. I just thought I'd point out his attitude with the "hee hee" comment, thinking he still had the nuts there.

Is this flat-calling with high PPs just a move you see on low stakes games? Because when I used to play playmoney this hardly ever happened. At worst you'd see people limp utg with aces then go all in when someone raised. This suggests to me that it's considered even slightly advanced play by the average fish.

[Thor2007]

I used to slow play big hands way too often and was getting caught often by junk hands. Some advice and some thinking on my part led me to playing them fast and hard.

How often do you see them getting caught on the river, and because you haven't raised preflop you can't narrow down your opponent(s) hand(s).

If you raise big preflop then you can narrow them down to some strength and then a big bet on the flop should either see you take the pot there and then or if the opponent has made top pair you may get raised and then you're quids in. If you lose to a small set then you've just got unlucky but at least you never gave away free cards and hung yourself.

[ratboy01]

i agree with you there definately best to raise pre-flop you might even cause low pockets to be folded by a cautious player; only problem with this is that you might cause everyone to fold then you top hand is wasted so...?

also low pockets 22/33/44 are they worth calling a riase to see the flop and then a call for thr turn if nothing?

[Prowler]

only times its worth slow playing aces is .....

when playing limit.....

sklansky seems to believe this is the only way to play them, kk and qq are different because their is a higher chance of being drawn out on


when heads up ......

depends on opponent and stacks etc but is playable, in fact the same goes for most premium hands


and ratboy...the saying is no set, no bet......until your more experienced in flop play and reading opponents whilst playing low pairs its prolly safer to fold if you dont hit

[trustme]

Heres a hand from a cash game where someone decided to slow play kings from utg, the tables not really aggressive, if there was one of the other players raising a lot you could understand it but this wasnt the case, family pot and everyone got a look at the flop and the situation went against them.

Hand #405338236 at table: Table TH 500
Started: Thu Aug 31 03:44:13 2006

vimpan is at seat 1 with 186.35
trust_me is at seat 2 with 174.67
Schrades is at seat 3 with 52.16
tcright is at seat 4 with 26.70
Thor2006 is at seat 5 with 111.20

Schrades posts the large blind 1.00
trust_me posts the small blind 0.50

trust_me: Qd, 5h
Schrades: --, --
tcright: --, --
Thor2006: --, --
vimpan: --, --

Pre-flop:

tcright: Call 1.00
Thor2006: Call 1.00
vimpan: Call 1.00
trust_me: Call 1.00
Schrades: Check

Flop (Board: Qh, 5d, 6h):

trust_me: Check
Schrades: Check
tcright: Bet 4.00
Thor2006: Fold
vimpan: Fold
trust_me: Raise 12.00
Schrades: Fold
tcright: Raise 25.00
trust_me: Raise 38.00
tcright: All in

Turn (Board: Qh, 5d, 6h, Qc):


River (Board: Qh, 5d, 6h, Qc, Ac):


Showdown:

trust_me shows: Qd, 5h (full house)
tcright shows: Kd, Ks (two pair, Kings and Queens)

Mainpot:
trust_me wins the pot of 53.60 with full house


As a rule I wont limp with aces or kings, if there is a raise before me I will rarely flat call it, like to reraise at all times. At the moment AA and KK are losing me money in cash games, which is something i need to work on. Sometimes I need to lay them down on the turn or river but still find it hard to get away from them.

[Thor2007]

My AA hand last night went like a dream.

I've just found the hand history after about 10 minutes of searching!

Hand #405312789 at table: Table TH 184
Started: Thu Aug 31 02:14:04 2006

puggsy1 is at seat 1 with 142.00
spliteur is at seat 2 with 372.20
Thor2006 is at seat 3 with 97.40
Paparazi1 is at seat 4 with 0.00
willawilla is at seat 5 with 650.80

puggsy1 posts the large blind 4.00
willawilla posts the small blind 2.00

willawilla: --, --
puggsy1: --, --
spliteur: --, --
Thor2006: Ad, Ah

Pre-flop:

spliteur: Call 4.00
Thor2006: Raise 12.00
willawilla: Call 12.00
puggsy1: Raise 36.00
spliteur: Fold
Thor2006: All in
willawilla: Call 97.40
puggsy1: All in
willawilla: Call 146.00

Flop (Board: 9h, 4c, Jh):


Turn (Board: 9h, 4c, Jh, Jc):


River (Board: 9h, 4c, Jh, Jc, 9c):


Showdown:

willawilla shows: 5h, Kh (two pair, Jacks and Nines)
puggsy1 shows: Kd, Ks (two pair, Kings and Jacks)

Sidepot 2:
puggsy1 wins the pot of 94.20 with two pair, Kings and Jacks

Thor2006 shows: Ad, Ah (two pair, Aces and Jacks)

Mainpot:
Thor2006 wins the pot of 296.20 with two pair, Aces and Jacks

Now you can see from the K5 suited call that there truely are donks on these tables, they just need to be targeted and then busted!

[Dice Man]

If that'd been me I would've lost that hand.

[Thor2007]

I lost a few big pots last night too with big hands. KK seems to be my enemy at the moment.

[Wuddle]

All in with K5??!!

Where do you find these people LOL, respect .