Does anyone know the rules?

[Top Pair Ace Kicker]

This situation has come up a couple of times recently, and whilst i think I'm right, I would be interested in anyone elses views, because, as far as I can see, no rulebook I have looked in covers this situation.

The exact situation last night is as good an example as any so I will put this up.

Blinds are 1000/2000 both blinds post and get 2 callers. The small blind folds, and the big blind with a total of 2500 (i.e only 500 more than his blind) checks. Flop comes down.

Big blind, now first to act puts his last 500 chips in. What size bet does the next person have to post to carry on playing?

I say if they want to call the bet they can put 500 in, even though the minimum bet at this stage of the game is 2000. Is that right? I look at it from the angle that if the next person to act folded, the last person to act would only have to put in 500 to call, so it must be the same for the first person.

If the next player wants to raise the bet, would they have to put in 4000? or 2000? or, double the size of the previous bet so only 1000?

Every rulebook I have looked at talks about a situation where a blind raises all in (usually preflop) with less than a minimum bet, and discusses if this then reopens the betting for people who had previously bet, but not when they check, then bet with an undersized amount.

[FirePhil]

Big blind, now first to act puts his last 500 chips in. What size bet does the next person have to post to carry on playing?

I say if they want to call the bet they can put 500 in, even though the minimum bet at this stage of the game is 2000. Is that right? I look at it from the angle that if the next person to act folded, the last person to act would only have to put in 500 to call, so it must be the same for the first person.

That's right, the only time you have to more than match the bet when calling is pre-flop when the BB posts for less than the full big blind. So 500 to call here.

If the next player wants to raise the bet, would they have to put in 4000? or 2000? or, double the size of the previous bet so only 1000?

I think that if the all-in is for less than half a full bet then they can just complete it to 2000 rather than raising to 4000. If the BB had pushed for over 1000 I think the raise would have to be to 4000. They can't raise to 1000 ever.
I'm almost certain that this is the case in limit holdem and I don't see why it would be any different for NL.

Interesting question though, as you've said I don't think I've even seen this situation explained very well in any set of rules.

[Top Pair Ace Kicker]

Cheers Phil.

I thought I was right about the first part, calling an undersize bet. There was a bit of confusion when one person thought he had to call the full 2000 bet, so folded, only to remark that he would have paid 500 to carry on and hope everyone checked it down after, when I told him that he only had to call 500.

Thinking about it there must have been 4 players left in, because after he folded, one person called the 500, and the last to act raised all in for a lot more.

I'm still not sure about the raising part though. I think I will fire off an email to Bob Ciaffone himself, as it does say he likes to answer emails regarding his famous rules of poker, and see what he says.

[FirePhil]

I'm still not sure about the raising part though. I think I will fire off an email to Bob Ciaffone himself, as it does say he likes to answer emails regarding his famous rules of poker, and see what he says.

Good plan. I asked someone else and they thought that the raise should be to at least 2500 which made sense to me, would be good to know the actual rules though!

[Top Pair Ace Kicker]

Blimey the man moves quick...

I think he's mis read the part about the size of the blinds, as he writes about bets of $1000, when the blinds were 1000 for the SB and 2000 for the Big blind, but you can still follow the logic, which goes along with Phils last reply. If its under half the min bet, you make it up to the min bet. If its over half, you must raise by the min bet PLUS the bet posted.

anyway, here is his reply....

There is no poker form where you are required to put in more than the all-in amount wagered except when the big blind does not have enough money to post the full amount, in which case you must put in the minimum opening amount.

So after the flop, even though the minimum bet is $1000, the big blind can bet $500 all-in and that is the only amount you need to call.

However, the minimum wager is the smallest amount you can raise if the wager is half a bet or more. So if the all-in amount had been $400 you would have to make the total wager at least $1000 if you wished to raise. If the all-in wager had been $800 you would have to make it $1800 (in my opinion) because it is half the minimum bet or more. I think a $500 wager should need to be increased to $1500 if one wishes to raise. I am going by the rule for limit poker, which I believe should apply to NLH in this particular area. This is a gap in poker rules that my rules do not address and other poker rule sets I do not believe address. Thank you for calling it to my attention; I will write an article about it

[FirePhil]

wow, quick response. It makes sense that way (I think ), I'll keep an eye out for an article on this.

I think the confusion between 1000 and 2000 is down to 1000/2000 limit holdem being the size of the bets, not the blinds, whereas 1000/2000 NL would be the size of the blinds.

[sl0ggs]

Good work TPAK, it's a great question, and nice to get a response from the man.

I've only come across this in a game once that I can remember, and recall there being some confusion over what should happen! I'll look out for the article...

[Top Pair Ace Kicker]

I think the confusion between 1000 and 2000 is down to 1000/2000 limit holdem being the size of the bets, not the blinds, whereas 1000/2000 NL would be the size of the blinds.

Ah, yes. That would explain it.

[Top Pair Ace Kicker]

Received another email this morning.

I checked on this rule with a couple of topnotch tmt directors. Neither had ever see it come up, but both thought that regardless of the amount bet, the amount had to be raised at least the full amount of the minimum bet. After thinking it over, I agree with them. So in your situation the player could call $500 or raise to at least $2500.

I find it funny that in all the years these guys have been playing and running poker no-one has ever seen this situation before. I guess in the circles they move and play in, no-one is stupid enough to just check when they only have 1/4th of a blind left....

[fraczish]

Good work TPAK!!!