pocket pairs

[PokerWoody]

Danny, I understand your basic point that a pair of aces is only a pair and a pair is a long way behind other some of the other hands. In fact, when playing deep stacked poker, you will nearly never win a big pot with just a pair, that is also true. However, you must see that folding Aces pre flop because they might lose is a ridiculous notion. Do you know what the fundamental therom of poker is? It sounds to me like you don't, or at least you don't understand it. I recommend you get hold of a copy of "The Theory of Poker" by David Slansky and read it. In my view this is the first poker book anyone should read, it really is a very good book and explains the basic premise of the game very clearly.

I got my stats from a program called Poker Stove, if you don't have it, I recommend downloading it. It is an excellent program.

I'll also add that I think in the example TPTK gave where he might fold aces, is actually a really good time to go in and a bad time to be folding but that is a separate discussion…

Finally, playing a quick heads up match will not prove anything about your poker manhood. Just like AA doesn’t always win neither does the best player in a heads up match always win (or indeed in any game of poker). Not only that but the best person heads up will not necessarily be the best player at a full ring table, or 6 handed etc.

[Terminator]

I'm sorry, but can someone just clarify something for me, we are talking about folding aces pre-flop in a game of texas hold 'em, arn't we? I just want to check, because it's the most rediculous thing I've ever heard of!

[John Holmes' Stunt C**K]

But Terminator, someone may call you all-in with 2 3 offsuit and catch 4 5 6 on the flop

[DannyC]

But Terminator, someone may call you all-in with 2 3 offsuit and catch 4 5 6 on the flop

Exactly my point, and its escalated to this?
Could even be 2 suited cards and catch a flush or flush draw.

[DannyC]

Finally, playing a quick heads up match will not prove anything about your poker manhood. Just like AA doesn’t always win neither does the best player in a heads up match always win (or indeed in any game of poker). Not only that but the best person heads up will not necessarily be the best player at a full ring table, or 6 handed etc.

Yer im sorry about that, the beer got to me, lets keep it friendly, was only just pointing out how I've seen it done and on what occasion there is a possability of getting beat, not the fact that you should fold AA on the flop, just what would/could happen throuh the whole 5 community cards especially on an all-in.

[Top Pair Ace Kicker]

not the fact that you should fold AA on the flop, just what would/could happen throuh the whole 5 community cards especially on an all-in.

But this is the vital difference. I totally agree with you about folding Aces ON the flop. Every good poker player should have the ability to lay down monster hands when you suspect you have fallen behind. The point is that pre-flop, Aces are not behind anything. Nothing. Therefore to lay them down on the assumption that something might come up and beat you is, well, baffling.

This leads me onto my second point. On your example there are 3 other players in a flop with your rockets. To my mind it is very bad play to let that many players see the flop in the first place. If you have Rockets, then you want to be up against as few players as possible. If it means you raise too big and everyone folds then so be it, but I despair of people complaining about "bad beats" when they havent played the hand correctly in the first place.

Onto my last point about the one occassion i would POSSIBLY fold them. Lets say I have entered a ten dollar satellite to a qualifier to a big tournament (hell lets say its the WSOP, as we can all dream) and won my way there.

Now lets say there are 501 people left in the tournament, and although I am short stacked, there are 2 other players who have even less than me. 2 short stack guys go all in before it gets to me. Perhaps they even get called by a third person before it gets to me. I look at Rockets, I know that if I fold them I am virtually guaranteed to get the 500th place and win 10,000 dollars and therefore 9,990 dollars profit. If I play and lose I would be virtually out myself........

Judging by the fact there are this many people already in the pot, it is almost 100% that maybe one, or even both the other aces are already in play, so in this instance you are unlikely to improve on one (big) pair. OK if you want to be pedantic you could say that this much action pre flop in ANY game *could* be reason to fold for the same reasons, ie, there are no more aces to hit, but in any normal game I would still call. If it was for 10 thousand dollars? Lets just say folding becomes more of an option..

Unlikely situation? of course it is! but thats about how likely things would have to be for me to do it.

[The Philosopher]

Danny "2 words, probably and dont think" Says it all for me - especially the "dont think" part.

BTW Danny - claiming benefit and sitting on practice tables all day doesn't really make a you a professional.

I've had enough of the lads ripping the piss out of you and cant take any more of this wanton abuse - no matter how hillarious it gets.

[DannyC]

Danny "2 words, probably and dont think" Says it all for me - especially the "dont think" part.

BTW Danny - claiming benefit and sitting on practice tables all day doesn't really make a you a professional.

I've had enough of the lads ripping the piss out of you and cant take any more of this wanton abuse - no matter how hillarious it gets.

Hmmm, maybe its the other way around? Maybe you should READ my post proper

LOOK...
Regarding the other thread:

Quote:
I dont think I would fold AK on many occasions but in your scenario I would've one all in too most probably



2 words, probably and dont think (actually 3 words? )

I was quoting someone ELSE'S quote, so before coming out with sarcastic comments, read the posts proper please.

As for Top Pair, Agreed.

[The Philosopher]

At last - we are all agreed that AA pre-flop should never be folded unless for strategic tourny reasons. That wasn't easy for something so simple in its essense.