Me and my big mouth......

[Terminator]

The blinds, betting etc are not important in this hand. Holding A-K I was heads-up. The flop came Q-J-X, the turn came 10, and the river was another 10, so I had a straight to the ace. after the betting was finished and we had the showdown, my opponent (with his cards in his hand) said "you got the straight? You got the staight havn't you?", to which I replied "yes I have", and I promptly flipped over my cards. He said "Shit", and promptly mucked his cards. I was pulling all the chips towards my stack, whilst people were chatting about the hand, and he was saying "I thought you had the straight", and whilst I started stacking the chips up, I made the mistake of saying "why, what did you have?". And he said "pocket Queens", someone kindly pointed out that he had hit the full house and actualy won the hand, I protested that he mucked his cards. But the ruling is, if you win a hand and ask what your opponent in the hand had, his cards are considered live, even if mucked, and so I now had to shove all the chips back over to him, and it was a monster pot! I was so gutted.... why didn't I keep my big mouth shut? lol.......... he's not the kind of guy to misread his hand, but I'm taking no chances in the future, grab your chips, and don't show any interest in what your opponent had!

[trustme]

if someone cant spot that they have a full house they dont deserve the chips!

[PokerWoody]

This rule only applies if you ask to see thier cards rather than ask them what hand they hand. After all, he could have been lying. I lie about my cards all the time after having mucked my hand, i'd be pretty anoyed if someone then grabbed my cards from the muck and showed them I was lying.

So you gave him the pot when he really had no right to it! Don't you feel better now?

[Terminator]

He grabbed his cards from the muck, and my claim to the pot was over-ruled, and the pot was awarded to him.

[PokerWoody]

Well I maybe wrong on the interpretation but my take on it would be that as you didn't ask to see his hand his hand is still dead.

From Bobs Rules...

Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that is eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

You didn't ask to see his hand, you asked him what he had...to me that is a whole world of difference. I'm anal though

[Terminator]

I agree with you here, and feel hard done by! (lol). Asking what he had, isn't asking him to fish his cards out so I can have a look at them..... I might go and ask for my chips back.................

[Top Pair Ace Kicker]

A couple of things not quite right in Terminators memory here, but I'm still not sure if the correct decision was made in the end. (And I was the referee)

When Terminator asked the other player what he had the reply was not "Pocket Queens", it was "Trip Queens" As he said this the player did actually flash his cards and I and the player on my right saw them before he put them on top of the muck pile. About a second after he did that, both I and the other player who had seen the cards said "STOP!" (or something similar) and another player who hadnt seen the flash of the cards said "I thought a full house beats a straight?"

Here it gets complicated. Being a player and a referee, I dont know if I did the right thing by retrieving the cards from the muck, but I wanted to do it before any shuffling took place, as I knew exactly where they were, so took the decision instantly.

I think it still comes down to a couple of technical points. Firstly whose responsibility is it to read the cards? Well this didnt really come into play as the player who mucked his cards never actually turned them completely over for everyone to see.

Then there is the second technical point of did Terminator actually ask to see his cards, or did he ask him what he had, (and is there a difference lol)

It is obviously the other players fault for not seeing what he had. He thought he was behind as soon as he saw the first ten hit the board, and the fact that another ten then came, didnt register in his mind.

As it was, I had to make an on the spot decision as to what to do, and seeing as we had been having a discussion about this very thing happening somewhere else, it seemed close enough to the rule that if the winning player asks to see the losing players hand, the the losing players hand then becomes live again, so thats what decision I made.

I know that Terminator is not having a go at me for making this decision, by posting this thread, as we had a laugh about it later, but it was amazing that we had been discussing this very situation not so long ago, and we wondered why anyone who had won a hand would want to see the losing players hand, except for information purposes.

Well sometimes you get information you dont like!

The actual rules of poker state the following:

2. cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot. (For more information on miscalling a hand see “Section 11 - Lowball,” Rule 15 and Rule 16.)

3. Any player, dealer, or floorperson who sees an incorrect amount of chips put into the pot, or an error about to be made in awarding a pot, has an ethical obligation to point out the error Please help us keep mistakes of this nature to a minimum

But as he didnt actually turn his cards over for everyone to see, I'm still not sure if the correct decision was made.

[PokerWoody]

Yeah, thinking about it some more I think you're right. There can't really be any distinction between asking what someone had and asking to see thier cards.

[Terminator]

Yup, no worries Top Pair, it was just an interesting situation which, like you said, we had discussed and never thought it would arise, still, it's difficult to know what decision to make when it happens. I think your call was a good one to a certain extend, it's all down to how one interperts the ruling. ie; at which point does the hand become "finished/over", (I was stacking chips, and the dealer button had been passed, but the cards had not been collected), and what is defined as "the hand becomes live", ie; I casually asked him what he had, not if I could see his cards. One interpretation of the rule could mean that had I asked to see his cards, they would be taken from the muck pile, therefore becoming live again, (as they are no longer in the muck pile, due to my request to view them), as appose to asking him what he had, meaning the cards remain in the muck pile and he could have said anything he liked. But like we have discussed over and over again, the rules are more like guidelines, there are no "yes" or "no" answers to many uncertain situations in the game, and this is the point where the appointed tournament director uses their knowledge of the rules, along with common sense and experience, to make a decision, and ensure that the game runs smoothly. In my case, Top Pair was the tournament director, and so any decision decided upon by him is final, (even though I agreed with him anyway).

[The Philosopher]

I actually seen Phil Helmuth stop a game from the TV commentary position and correct a miscall like the one discussed here. So no need for anyone to feel bad about raking in the muck.

Long time ago I used to play a lot of blackjack and 3 card brag and the rule always was if you threw it away that was it - cards are dead. Easy to apply and I think it is instinctively fairer. If we go back to the thread on verbal declarations then why is "Fold" after the river treated differently i.e. reversed when a call out of turn before the river would not be?

I do agree with the conclusion reached above as the rules apply but I think it is hard - not only the Terminator - but also on the other players in the tournament if it keeps someone in that would have been out or gives someone a massive chip lead instead of crippling them.

The one exception I would make - and then only once - is at games for brand new learners and there I would encourage them to say nothing and lay their hands down to be read by the dealer.