Poker instinct

[Top Pair Ace Kicker]

I know I'm not the best poker player around. I see a lot of posts about the cold hard maths of the game, and to be honest a lot of it leaves me totally baffled and/or totally cold. Yes I know what outs I've got on certain hands and I know if I am calling for value in certain situations, and I also know that if I took the effort to learn a lot more than I would become a better player, but all of that comes a far distant second to the main reason I play...

I love poker, especially live poker for the sheer thrill of the game. The thrill of slow playing the nuts and have someone bet heavily into you. The thrill of someone showing you their full house only for you turn over your quads, and sometimes the thrill of backing a "hunch" and seeing it come in.

There is a frustrated post on the board from Firephil about someone calling his bet with nothing but a draw, which then hit, but to me that is an integral part of the game.

I had a brilliant example of this at a game i was at last week in a tournament I was chip leader in with 6 people left. I had about 16000; there was one similar sized stack to my right, but the next biggest stack was about 7k.

I was UTG and got dealt J-T. I flat called the 400 blind and the shortest stack to my left called too. The next person, another short stack minimum raised and the 7k stack who was next to play doubled the bet to 1600. the next two folded, including the big stack, and it was back round to me.

All of a sudden I had a thought, nay, not a thought, a vision! I looked at all the stacks, took a second to think about it, then slowly said "I'm going to raise all of you all in" and moved a total of 7k into the middle. As I suspected, they all called and showed 6-6, A-K and A-K. I didnt even register what the hands were as the flop soon brought 2-7-T. The turn was ANOTHER T and the river another 2, making me the full house and promptly reduced the field from 6 to 3.

Why did I do this? I'm pretty sure that I would have made the same move even I had only 7K in chips in the first place, rather than a large stack, but something told me that this was the time. One of the remaining players called it "inspired" which, looking back on it, it was.

I'm pretty much certain that I wont be the only person with this sort of story, and Im absolutely positive its certainly something you wont read about in any poker book, but to me, on the odd occasion something like this happens. To receive a clarity of thought like that, is something that I like to play for.

[Terminator]

I understand what your saying, I have the same thing sometimes. Throw away the odds calculator, forget your opponents's bets suggesting how strong their hand is, forget the fact that you might be dominated by 15/1, and forget that you only have 8 outs in the deck! I play some of my hands on feeling and insticnt, and it can work out well!

[FirePhil]

There is a frustrated post on the board from Firephil about someone calling his bet with nothing but a draw, which then hit, but to me that is an integral part of the game.

This post was more about the call being being the mathematically correct move but it still being a very bad call than anything else. Whilst losing that pot was frustrating it doesn't really bother me, people making poor calls is what makes the game profitable over the longer term.

I agree that playing drawing hands is an integral part of the game, if no-one put any money in the pot without a made hand it would be a very dull game with very few showdowns.

[John Holmes' Stunt C**K]

At the end of the day toppair, you just got lucky

[Top Pair Ace Kicker]

At the end of the day toppair, you just got lucky

Thanks for your insightful comment. I will look out for your future pearls of wisdom with interest.

I prefer to call it inspirational, almost God like in its clarity of vision and thought.

Luck is for lesser men.

[Top Pair Ace Kicker]

This post was more about the call being being the mathematically correct move but it still being a very bad call than anything else. Whilst losing that pot was frustrating it doesn't really bother me, people making poor calls is what makes the game profitable over the longer term.

I am interested in why you think that doing something mathematically correct is the wrong move, when so many pros will call or fold things purely on the odds they are given, (though obviously coupled with the information on the players they are playing etc.)

On the hand you listed I reckon he might have seen you rapidly go from 700 to 100, and seen you go all in when it is almost certainly a titlting manouvre, or at best top pair rather than the flush, and you have given him the correct odds to call.

[FirePhil]

I am interested in why you think that doing something mathematically correct is the wrong move, when so many pros will call or fold things purely on the odds they are given, (though obviously coupled with the information on the players they are playing etc.)

On the hand you listed I reckon he might have seen you rapidly go from 700 to 100, and seen you go all in when it is almost certainly a titlting manouvre, or at best top pair rather than the flush, and you have given him the correct odds to call.

You won't find a single pro who will make that call. This was a very marginal call if he knew my exact hand. Yes he had just seen me rapidly go from 700 to 100, but by getting my money in with the nuts or close to it. All-in being is not almost certainly a tilting manouvre, the bet is not much bigger than the pot. Any other bet would leave me with not enough to make a significant bet on the turn.

Now for WHY it was a bad call. He can not completely ignore that I could have a bigger club. He is only holding the 4th nut flush draw. AK or AQ with the Kc or Qc are certainly in my range and KK or QQ with a club are possible, especially if he perceives me as being on tilt. Just the knowledge that he might not be drawing to the best hand is more than enough to make folding correct. If he gives me the range AA-QQ and AK-AQ his equity is only 24.5%. Even if he puts me on AQ his equity is only 25.3% just from the possibility that I have the Qc and he is drawing almost dead. For his call to be correct he has to put me on top pair or worse with a 0% chance that I have a club.

His call pre-flop was just as bad though.

[cuyber]

Not sure if it was that bad a call or inspiraton

4 players in and seeing 66, ak,ak, Jt was just dominating so in hindsight the best hand won.

Jack ten-----36.4%
ace king----14.4%
ace king ----14.4%
Pocket 6,s---34.9%

[Top Pair Ace Kicker]

You won't find a single pro who will make that call. This was a very marginal call if he knew my exact hand. Yes he had just seen me rapidly go from 700 to 100, but by getting my money in with the nuts or close to it. All-in being is not almost certainly a tilting manouvre, the bet is not much bigger than the pot. Any other bet would leave me with not enough to make a significant bet on the turn.

Now for WHY it was a bad call. He can not completely ignore that I could have a bigger club. He is only holding the 4th nut flush draw. AK or AQ with the Kc or Qc are certainly in my range and KK or QQ with a club are possible, especially if he perceives me as being on tilt. Just the knowledge that he might not be drawing to the best hand is more than enough to make folding correct. If he gives me the range AA-QQ and AK-AQ his equity is only 24.5%. Even if he puts me on AQ his equity is only 25.3% just from the possibility that I have the Qc and he is drawing almost dead. For his call to be correct he has to put me on top pair or worse with a 0% chance that I have a club.

His call pre-flop was just as bad though.

Yes but Phil your point of view, as everyones always is, is based upon events AFTER you know the outcome. The odds calculated are always done after everyone knows what everyone else had.

Did you even stop to think before YOU went all in if HE was holding the Kc Qc? Or Kc Kd?

Why not? Whatever reason you may have for not thinking he might not have had them is perhaps the very reason he didnt put you on them.

Then again it might just be a bad call.....

[FirePhil]

Yes but Phil your point of view, as everyones always is, is based upon events AFTER you know the outcome. The odds calculated are always done after everyone knows what everyone else had.

That is my point. The call was mathematically correct after the hole cards are known but because they were not known at the time the call was incorrect.

Did you even stop to think before YOU went all in if HE was holding the Kc Qc? Or Kc Kd?

Why not? Whatever reason you may have for not thinking he might not have had them is perhaps the very reason he didnt put you on them.

Then again it might just be a bad call.....

Yes I did stop to think. He had limped in then called a raise so that just about eliminates KcQc and KK. If he has a made flush then so be it. To be honest there's nothing more to discuss, I hope the other player thinks that because his call turned out to be correct that he makes it every time. My EV if he folds is +$82, my EV if he calls is +$142. He has to be 100% sure of his read to make it a profitable call.

This post was more about the call being being the mathematically correct move but it still being a very bad call than anything else. Whilst losing that pot was frustrating it doesn't really bother me, people making poor calls is what makes the game profitable over the longer term.

If you can't see that to call in his position was wrong then that's your view and you're entitled to it.